Is it really necessary to publicly shame these kids or their families?

Mar: we publish all reports given to us by Newtown Twp Police. I don't believe an exception should be made in this instance. All of those listed are 18 or older.

Out of respect for the individuals and their families you could have made the appropriate decision to omit the names from your article... regardless of whether or not they were provided to you in the police report. I do enjoy your blog and think you do a wonderful job keeping us "in the loop" on the happenings of Newtown, however this did not sit well with me at all.

Perhaps you will consider being more gracious and discerning with future exceptions.

I'm sorry if this didn't sit well with you but the names listed were all 18 years or older. Thus, they are adults like any other person included in the police report.

Jacque voiced my exact feelings also....did not feel it was necessary to post the names....if I wanted that information, I'd go to the Police Blotter at BCCT

Agree with posters. This will live forever online and haunt them for the rest of their lives. Unnecessary.

At some point in life, we all become responsible for our actions. If I eliminate these names from the police report just because in some people's opinion they are still "kids" where do I draw the line? When some is 22, 25, 30...?

Kara, You are asking yourself good questions. The answers are rarely black and white, but it's important to continue to review what is essential, what is damaging, and to realize the responsibilities you have as a journalist and as a compassionate being.

I would draw the line when those involved were in a private home and when publishing their names does not add anything to the story. You are not protecting anyone or helping any one by including their names. We are well aware that public records exist and that citizens can access that information. Your excuse that this was reported by the Newtown police rings hollow; it was not they who sensationalized it by making it the head "news" article and sending it as the subject line to countless emailboxes this morning. I am not related to any of these kids, but it is not hard for me to imagine how I would feel if it were my son or daughter's mistake that was put on the internet for the world to see forever. How about you?

If my son or daughter was involved I wouldn't be blaming their "mistake" - your words - on news reports. I would be holding them accountable. We will agree to disagree on this one. Just to reiterate: if I make exceptions for certain things, then I will be always asked to continue making exceptions based on some people's view points. That begins to taint public information and my ability to do my job.

Who is blaming anyone's mistake on news reports? Yes, "mistake" was my word. I am choosing to believe that the persons at the party used poor judgement and acted irresponsibly - a mistake - but perhaps you would rather have us believe there was something much more sinister at play? Furthermore, no one suggested that what those cited did was okay, and no one suggested that they not be held accountable. What I expressed, and what other posters seemed to agree with, is that is may have been unnecessary to publish their names in order for that to happen. I believe I have been respectful, and that the feedback to your article has been constructive. I suggest that if you plan to stay in this business, you might learn to accept constructive criticism without responding so defensively.

Exactly, Linda... If I really needed/wanted to know the names I would read the blotter.

Kara, where to draw the line is a good question... However, 17, 18 or 30 they are are still someones child and no one deserves to be humiliated, especially in a situation where the "kids" are more than likely already ashamed and embarrassed - not to mention their parents too .

I'm not saying that you should never name names, but was it really relevant to your article? I highly doubt that you'll see on the news tonight the reports listing all 21 of those "kids". Most know that there are ways to get that information if you really need or want it. Choosing to not list the names wouldn't have effected the integrity of your article...

That said, put yourself in the shoes of those "kids" and/or their parents... would you want their names listed in what could be viewed as a gossipy manner? Would you want your child to have to live with that embarrassment for the rest of their lives? If it was relevant to the story I would say absolutely list the name(s), but it isn't and therefor (in my opinion) completely unnecessary.

To each his own, i suppose...

On last note on this, coming from an adult who has once been in the shoes of those "kids"... Often the legal punishment for this violation is alcohol awareness classes and community service and upon completion they will "close" (meaning make the record private) or sometimes even remove this from your record. Should that be the case for the persons involved it will no longer be public knowledge... but now, sadly, because of this article it will continue to be public record, forever...

"Police said they are not currently releasing the name of the homeowner."

Well, it has to either be the parents of Rachel Kuntz or Michael Mirande since we know the party was hosted by an 18 year old from Newtown. Not much mystery there.

Also, with 18 names showing, and 4 juveniles not listed...that means 22 underage drinking citations, not 21.

I think it is absolutely fine that the names were included. What these kids were doing was illegal, hence the citations from the police. To minimalize it in any way would be condoning the behavior. It is this type of attitude that adds to the increasing number of youths today that carry on with an air of entitlement. They should be shamed and humiliated. Perhaps they will learn to respect the law now that they have learned a hard, yet obviously needed lesson. Apologizing for their behavior and calling it a mistake only minimalizes it more to the persons involved. They need to be held accountable. They knew they were breaking the law when they made the decision to drink alcoholic beverages. Perhaps now they will reconsider if presented with the same options in the future.

It bothers me that Kara, and now you Bill, seem to think that anyone here is minimizing this incident just because we hold the opinion that publishing the names was not necessary. Just because I said it was a "mistake" (note I never said "only" a mistake) does not deny that it was against the law, that it was wrong, that they deserved to be cited, that they should be held accountable, that they deserve punishment, and that they should reconsider this kind of behavior in the future.

I guess where we differ is the whole "public shaming" aspect of it. No, I still cannot see why it is necessary to take something like this and put it out there for people like you or me to judge and gossip about them. I believe that because they were caught, cited, had to have their parents come and pick them up, will surely pay fines, and have to make other restitution, they are being held accountable, and they will reconsider their actions in the future.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...

Mar,
Withholding the information, in my opinion, would be minimalizing the incident. They are adults who made a conscious decision to break the law and were caught in the act by law enforcement officers. Part of the accountability they must now accept is that the fallout from their decision will be a part of Public Record. Will you call the Bucks County Courier Times and the Advance when they publish the names in the coming days? This is not the only venue where the names will appear. It is simply a reality of how our Law Enforcement system works.

Perhaps my use of "they should be shamed and humiliated" was not clear. I did not mean that they should be heckled and jeered by the masses. I meant that they should feel that way (shamed and humiliated) as it is part of the learning process when you do something you were not supposed to be doing. If they feel no shame, than there is no remorse. If there is no remorse, than they will act the same way in the future. Maybe next time they will attempt driving home and be involved in an accident. This would be tragic. I hope that by learning and understanding that what they did was wrong that it will help lead to better decision making in the future.

I am sorry if you felt I was attacking your comments, as I was just putting my opinion out there. It does not bother me when people have a differing opinion than mine, so again, I am sorry you feel bothered by my opinion.

Yes, but these "adults" are still in high school. And it's not like they're murderers. Posting their names was uncalled for.

John, how do we know they're still in high school? I'm not privy to that information.

And, yes Bill, you're right. We were not the only media outlet to post the names of those charged.

John,
Here is what I infer from your comment: High School students should be held to lower standards than other adults and Undrage Drinking is okay because it is not murder.

On the contrary, I believe printing the names was called for and a responsible act of reporting.

If you choose to play the games, then you choose to pay the price. No matter how old you are. At least this might have taught them a lesson. Maybe having their name in the paper for being caught will embarasse them, thus making them think before all their friends and family see their name in the paper again, esp. for something related that could be more serious then an underage drinking party. Mabye they won't touch the stuff until they are older and can respect it...

Do the kids need to be responsible for their actions? Yes.
Should there be some degree of embarrassment for them and their family? Maybe.
But we live in a different world now, and in 5 years, when one of these victims of journalistic assassination is applying for a job, and their prospective employer googles them and finds this article, and bases his/her decision to hire them based on this article, then what we've done as a journalist is not only expose their wrongdoing, but we keep the exposure living forever online.

Dirk,
"Victims of Journalistic assassination" is a rather dramatic proclamation. The reporter who wrote this story simply reiterated the information which was released by the Newtown Township Police Department. Remember that all of these names are Legally Adults and were included in the release.

Just to prove a point, I also selected a name at random and googled it. This story, with names included, appears to have been reported by no fewer than 5 other online media outlets, including MSNBC.com. I think it would be appropriate to consider this when trying to make a point by singling out this writer.

Loved you in Boogie Nights, by the way....

"victims of journalistic assassination" is hysterical.

Police arrest reports have been printed publicly decades.

If this was a list of African American kids from west Philly none of you would even bat an eye.

"Everybody else is doing it, why can't I?" I wonder if the kids used the same defense as the Patch is... if all you're doing is repeating information from other available sources, why bother?

Mar,
I would bet that the author of this story had no idea whether any other media sources would be printing the story. Therefore, your argument is moot. She was not following what "everybody else is doing", she was reporting on a locally significant and newsworthy event.

In case you are not aware, here is what Patch is: "We’re a community-specific news and information platform dedicated to providing comprehensive and trusted local coverage for individual towns and communities."

The author of this report is responsible for reporting on things in and around Newtown. These citations were issued to adults (not kids) in a residence that happens to be in Newtown. Therefore, it is Patch's responsibility to its own mission statement to carry the story. I found it interesting that so many people are blaming future troubles for these individuals on just this author. My point was that you cannot lay blame on one person if many sources also carried the report. However, we can lay blame on the individuals who made a conscious decision to disregard the law and were subsequently cited with violations when they were caught.

For the record, I am not in any way associated with Patch. However, I will always defend journalistic integrity.

Bottom line here is that the names could have been left out without having any impact on the integrity of the authors story. I'd like to think that this community is capable of showing some compassion (not leniency or whatever else you want to misconstrue my words to mean) to fellow residents and realize the impact this will have for those listed in the article. Further more, being that Patch reports on local newsworthy events, etc It would show the cuthe of the author to not feel the need to spread (in my opinion) gossip. They simply could have linked to the local police blotter or said "for more information..." and kept the integrity of the meaning of community.

Actually the local police blotter is sent to me from the department in a word document, so I have no capacity to link to it. Additionally, it is not gossip if it is fact.

Right on, Jacque! Kara, who chose to make it the main page headline and who chose to make it the subject line of the email Patch? Was there nothing else local that was newsworthy? There was a reason you put this front and center in your reporting. And you DO ask for comments and feedback.

BTW Nick, your comment "if this was a list of African American kids from west Philly none of you would even bat an eye" is pretty offensive and says a lot more about YOUR attitudes than anyone else I've seen posted here. I have no relation to any of these kids. I certainly don't know their ethnicity and will not make any assumptions based on their names or where they live. I didn't see anyone else do that, either. I don't see that this issue has anything to do with race, religion, orientation, whatever you want to throw on the pile.

Gossip is subjective...

And Tom, so let the other media outlets publish the names and let us try to have some respect for our fellow community members... All we are saying is that publishing the names of those involved was not necessary, especially when it is send to such a specific targeted audience. It didn't make any impact on the story what so ever.

This is a matter of style and policy. Hundreds of other media outlets follow the exact same policy. I am curious as to whether or not Patch has a stylebook it follows (AP?) and a written policy guideline governing such matters.

Hi Joe, yes we do. Like most media, our policy is to publish this information, provided the person or persons involved are adults (18 or older). Thanks for your question.

I don't buy it. I don't like it and I think it was wrong. Apparently, there is no editor that oversees what is published.

A disgrace? You know what I think is a disgrace? The fact you people are ignoring reality. These kids broke the law, the police caught them and now they have to pay the price. By the way brainiacs, The Advance published the very same thing on their website. Welcome to the 21st century!!!

I'm Patch's Regional Editor for Bucks County. Kara is following Patch policy and guidelines under my direction in publishing these names. Given the nature of this incident, we'll be certain to follow up as new information becomes available.

Thanks to everyone for participating in this important discussion. It's important that we take the time to consider both sides of issues like these.

If you have any other questions about Patch policy - or Patch in general - I'd like to encourage you to drop me an e-mail - karl.smith@patch.com - or give me a call - 215.262.5901.

So was there a decision to include the names, or was it simply a "cut and paste" story? Was there any discussion AT ALL about whether or not to include the names prior to publication?

Dear Suddenly Seymour,
Clearly you can't read very well, so I will summarize what was written above: Patch follows a journalistic Style which includes printing the name of offenders that are included in police reports when they are ADULTS, ages 18 or older.

The question was for the editor, not you. The statement above regarding the Patch's journalistic style does not address my original question, which to reiterate, is:

Was there any discussion whether or not to include names FOR THIS PARTICULAR STORY prior to publication?

Why would they need to discuss the content FOR THIS PARTICULAR STORY? They have a policy in place that they publish the names of those who break the law as long as they are adults who are over the age of 18. There is no need to discuss incidents on an individual basis. In fact, I would question their integrity if they chose to break from normal practice. It would bring into question their motivation. By following the established guideline, they are simply reporting the information that is at the heart of the story. You dont need an editor to answer that one.

If the editor (and you) wants to hide behind "policy", that's fine. It was wrong in this instance and justifying it by saying "they broke the law, so deal with it" and "other publications mentioned names, why not us" is a hollow defense.

For the record, I have no affiliation with Patch. However, they are neither hiding behind policy nor are they trying to justify anything. They did their job by reporting an event. End of story. If you don't like that they printed the names of the persons who were cited for breaking the law, no problem. that's your opinion and I respect it. However, printing the names is an accepted practice. The names are a matter of public record. To attack them for this practice is at best silly, at worst malicious and childish.

@kara

posting the names of these people was wrong, and uncalled for. No one is minamalizing the incident, but it is in poor taste, and judgement to post this. Everyone makes poor decisions in their lives, and to post and humiliate these people more is unacceptable and wrong. The offenses are minor, and this and other news orginazations just like to attract attention by doing things like this, and Kara, I think you used poor judegment in posting the names. Maybe if you had been on that list you would be more sensitive to the fact, but obviously you don't care about anything but your job, so therefore i have to come to the conclusion that your just too selfish to care.

A lot of emotion here, but after the article was printed and my wife and I discussed the name(s) issue in some detail ww came away with no resolution of what is right or not. Later that day we were going to an early dinner, but my wife wanted to drop off some dry cleaning at Royal Cleaners in Newtown ( same shopping center as the Farmers Market). I waited in the car while she did the drop off. I was using the internet on my phone, and when she came back she asked, 'did you see what's going on here?' I looked up and there was a beer transfer taking place two cars away. A younger woman nicely dressed was passing cases of beer from her SUV to three boys in another car. The boys appeared to be less than 21, the girl looked a little older and maybe of legal drinking age. I asked my wife, should we call the cops to have them check it out? She said 'No it would be like telling on your kids'. Everyone has an opinon on this. We all probably drank while underage, most while in college and some when in HS . Almost all college students have fake IDs, it is fact of life today. My wife and I raised 3 kids and all 3 were detained by the police one time for underage drinking. They learned that there are consequences to their actions and in the long term it may have helped them become better adults. Whatever your opinon as a parent is lets hope that we won't tolerate drinking while driving, for me that crosses the line.........no matter how old you are.

fyi - for all the people who don't like to see names posted, every time you post a comment to this article, you are adding "content" to the internet, which then makes the article even more popular amongst search engines and more likely to live on forever.....quit commenting on article.....I also learned an interesting fact the other day that the "newtown patch" is owned by the media giant AOL...hmmm

Yes, we are owned by AOL. For more information on the Patch network of local sites, visit www.Patch.com

It is a neurological "fact" that teenagers do not have mature brains and are inclined to take risks, no matter what legal status they have. It is known that alcohol may damage their brains more than a mature adult. It is not known that shame or humiliation has any effect whatsoever on the their inclination to take risks. It will likely have a boomerang effect in the long run.

Newtown 123 - please keep your comments constructive and free of personal insults.

There are no personal insults, just the facts.